A Conversation with Jeff Berman of Divided Heaven

I met Jeff Berman (AKA Divided Heaven) a few weeks ago at Get Better Fest in Keene. We had a good chat and he seemed like a pretty interesting dude, on top of being a great singer and guitarist, so I called him up last week to chat about life, his upbringing, his songs, his travels and the future of Divided Heaven. It turned into a pretty interesting talk about the state of the music industry and how tough it is to make in an oversaturated market where kids don't pay for music. Jeff has found some innovative ways to get around these hurdles and get himself heard, while maintaining his integrity and disposition. Jeff is a really, truly awesome dude, and while that shouldn't be a reason to listen to his music, it should make you feel better about downloading it and showing it to your friends. Check out Jeff's stuff at www.dividedheaven.com and look into his awesome album, A Rival City. This would make a great soundtrack for those summer nights on the porch. Thanks Jeff!

BK: So how do you go from growing up in Pennsylvania to chasing the dream in Los Angeles?

JB: It wasn't an immediate jump. I went to college at American University in Washington D.C., and then I moved to Brooklyn, New York shortly after I graduated. I was living in New York and I decided that I was kind of over it, and I wanted to try something new, and the girl that I was dating at the time and I'm still dating today was cool enough to move with me, and we agreed that Los Angeles would be a good place to start on the West Coast, and that was almost 4 years ago to the day.

And you were playing music this whole time?

Surprisingly no, when we were living in New York and I decided I wanted to move, I just started working as much as possible and I put music on the back burner so I could save as much as a possibly could. It kin of sucked, but at the same time I was able to save the money I needed to to make the move work. You know, I wanted a little buffer so that when I got out here I would have some money to spend and use before I needed to start working again. It wasn't until I had been living here for a few months that I actually started to write songs again and re-kickstart the Divided Heaven project.

So Divided Heaven is not a Los Angeles invention, you've had this going for a while?

Yeah I failed to mention that while I was studying at American University in D.C., I did a semester abroad in Berlin and it was kind of strange because, while I was in D.C. I was in a few different bands and the summer before I went abroad, I wasn't home at all. I was touring that whole summer. One night i played a show in Atlanta, went back to the hotel, took a shower, cut off my mohawk, drove to the airport, flew to Berlin and became and uber-serious student. You know, within the course of 24 hours. It was the weirdest thing, and I still had all this creative energy. It was almost like a withdrawl, going from playing so many shows and having such a good time to the studying. Not that studying isn't a good time, it's just definitely a different kind of satisfaction. So it was in Berlin that I started writing songs that didn't fit into any of the bands that I was in. it was a just a pipe dream really, to be able to sing and play my own songs. So that was where the idea really came to life.

That's such a wild story. You played a show, and then got on a plane to go abroad the next day?

Yeah, it's fucking crazy. I was in a band called the Boils at the time and there was a festival that GMM Records used to put on called the Beer Olympics. It was a street punk, oi! kind of festival. I remember distinctly that night that we just killed it; we were so fucking good. We played right before the Anti-Heroes played, who were the headliners. So we played the show, went to the airport, snip snip to the mohawk and yeah, it was bizarre.

Were any of those bands you were in at that time on labels or put out records?

Yeah, my main band was the Boils, we were a street punk band that was based out of the Philadelphia area. Besides the fact that I was living in Washington, I was up there almost every weekend doing that. We were on TKO Records, which still exists. They're a cool little street punk label. We did a couple releases on Creep Records, which is sort of a smaller East coast DIY label. I think they both exist, I'm not totally sure. The other bands I was in were on smaller labels and did kind of limited release stuff.

Very cool. So you get out to L.A., and you write what I assume is the majority of A Rival City out there?

About half of it.

And you were playing around, and how did Paper + Plastick find out about you?

Paper + Plastick got involved because Vinnie (Fiorello, P+P Owner and Less Than Jake drummer) met Brian from Protagonist, who is one of their guitar players, when Brian moved to Gainesville. I think they met in a Starbucks or something weird like that. Protagonist had recorded their record called The Chronicle, and it was done, and they just needed a label to put it out and they asked Vinnie and he said he would do it. So they had established a relationship with Vinnie and the Less Than Jake camp. And that was pretty close to when P+P had just started, that label was kind of in its infancy stage. And those guys are some of my best friends, so anytime I'm doing something they're really supportive of me and they always try to spread the word. So Brian and Peter from Protagonist shared with Vinnie some of the Divided Heaven stuff after I had just recorded it, and there was this basic idea to launch kind of a side website to release music for free by artists that they liked who maybe didn't want to press records or put a lot of money into it. I'm not so sure how I ended up in that kind of fold, but it worked out for the best because I was pressing CD's myself and Vinnie said it would be cool if we put the P+P logo on them so it was associated with that family. It was released digitally for free on FreeMusicFirst.org and on the P+P site. I'm not technically an official P+P artist, but I'm on the family tree.

The giving away music for free thing seems pretty important to you.

Yeah, you know, I work pretty hard. I work full time, and I cover shifts at a bar and at a restaurant from time to time to make ends meet. It was important to me that people were able to get this music, and I could share it with as many eager or interested people as possible, and I didn't want money to be an issue. I'm fortunate in that I don't have any band members to veto that decision. I had friends and family members who certainly thought it was a bad decision. I'm persistent in the fact that there's not a whole lot to it. I'm not reinventing the wheel here, it's just me and an acoustic guitar. There's piano on some songs and some of my friends playing other instruments and doing background vocals. So there wasn't a whole lot put into it, it was relatively cheap to make. So fuck it. Why not?

That's crazy. I talk to so many people that get bummed out people aren't willing to pay for things and you're just saying "Here! Take it! Put this on your iPod."

Yeah, I mean, the climate has changed. If I thought I could make money off of it, and I could sell CD's left and right, then I would sell it. But with the way things have been the past few years, you know, I'm conservative with the money I spend when I'm buying music. I think a lot of people are. I just didn't want that to be a deterrent for people to not want to listen to my music. It seemed like an unnecessary hurdle. Plus I had them done myself, so I was thinking if I sat down and made an Excel Spreadsheet and mapped out how many CD's I would have to sell at whatever price in order to start making money or to break even, that sucks. That would take the fun out of it for me. The last thing I would want would be for Divided Heaven to be this never ending math equation where I was always trying to figure out what "X" is.

So when you go out on tour, you're definitely not bringing money home doing business that way. So you're going out just because you want to?

Yeah, I mean, I don't think I'm necessarily smart about it. I just got back from a tour that was mostly the northeast, and after living in all of those cities it's essentially like going home. I don't really have to spent any money, it's just gas and food and partying, if I choose to do that. It's difficult when I try to fill in the gaps where I don't know very many people or when the drives get a little bit longer. I got paid at all the shows I played on the east coast. It wasn't a ton, but I always got at least a little bit. I found too that if people are getting a free CD than they are often willing to pay for a t-shirt. That's a double win.

So are you booking these tours yourself from old contacts?

Yeah, I mean, a lot of the people I used to know aren't really in the scene anymore, or they're not promoting anymore, or their bands aren't playing anymore. It's just a different thing now. I can roll into a place like Get Better Fest and play my songs and it's cool. I don't know if I could go to a street punk or an oi show and play something akin to what the Boils used to play years ago. I don't think it would go over as well. Although the newer, younger generation of kids seem to be more open to diversity. That's a not a knock on the way things were, but some of my contacts are like "Yeah, you can play, but it'd be really fucking weird."

It sucks because you still carry those same ethos, you still have that panhandling punk rock mentality, but they give you shit because you have the acoustic.

Well, it's not that they give me shit. It's just that I've had some great friends be completely honest with me (about Divided Heaven) and just say "No. Come back with a band and I'll book you. But no." I appreciate the honesty though.

So what were you listening to as a kid in Pennsylvania that got you interested in all of this and eventually led to your career as a musician?

That's a good question. The pillars, of course; Bad Religion and Green Day. The Bouncing Souls and Avail were two bands that were very big to me who played in Lancaster yearly, or a couple times a year. Lancaster itself has always had a really good independent music scene, and a specific punk rock scene which began in the 80's.  I think for a city that size, it's kind of deep and rich in punk rock and hardcore history. There were three different punk rock record stores in Lancaster growing up. Not like independent quirky CD stores with like Sublime t-shirts. I mean like punk as fuck, vinyl record stores. Lancaster itself probably had more influence on me than any specific bands.

So you weren't like the weird loner punk rock kid, you had a crew with you.

Oh my gosh man, no. I can't play that card. I was not ostracized or bullied or beat up for being punk. Lancaster is cool, man.

So you're over closer to Philly, were you around for the Lifetime/Kid Dynamite boom?

Yeah, when Kid Dynamite first started I was still there. That sounds stupid to say, but whatever. I went to Lifetime shows. I wasn't around when they sucked, when they had that really bad hardcore sound. I got onboard right before Hello Bastards came out.

That's like, if I could go back in time to see one tour....Oh man.

Yeah, I think maybe a year or so after I started going to shows. It was like Christmas time of '94 or '95. There was this show called Punk Rock Prom, and this local band Spear Assembly opened. Plow United played the other day, The Bouncing Souls played and Lifetime played last and Dan Yemin actually played bass because their bassist got lost somewhere on the way to the show. That was like right after Hello Bastards came out.

So there's the punk part of it, where does Divided Heaven come into play? If I were to describe your record to someone I would say Billie Joe Armstrong singing Dashboard Confessional songs. I think you actually sound uncannily like Billie Joe at times.

That's fair. I'm not sure if that's a blessing or a curse, but you're not the first person who has said that to me.

So was there a Dashboard phase?

I'm not too proud to say that I'm a huge Dashboard fan and have been forever, but I don't think there was a point where I heard something he did and said "This is what I wanna do." I'm a huge fan, I think that when he first started I was into it because no one was really doing that at the time, and it was good. I mean, he's really good. People may not like him, but they cannot deny that he is a great singer and a great guitar player. He was definitely an influence in that "If this guy can do this, I can do this" way. And Green Day in the same respect. They're one of my favorite bands, but I didn't pick up an acoustic guitar because I heard "Time of Your Life" it was more about wanting to put my life into my own songs that were mine and mine alone.

It's pretty cool that even with this staunch DIY background that you have, that you're open with that Green Day/Dashboard Confessional love. I feel like a lot of times, as an outsider looking in to that community, there is a kind of code or a set of weird rules you have to follow. Have you ever felt that way?

The other day I was playing a basement show and some of the other bands were kind of political , and being vegan was part of their band profile. I was there wearing leather shoes and a leather jacket. I would say that it doesn't stop me from doing what I'm doing. I think I'm sensitive to stuff like that, but in terms of rules, I think that for the most part the punk scene carries itself with pretty high regard, and we do a pretty good job looking out for each other. I know that I'm not going to judge somebody for liking anybody, let alone whatever is no longer cool or hip or too popular. I'm 30 now. I think that when I was 15 or 16 I was way more caught up in labels and descriptions within which we kind of categorized ourselves as bands. You know, the "emo" label was a big no-no when I was growing up. As I've gotten older, I clearly don't care. To answer your questions, I think at times it can be pretty limiting, but I think for the most part the kids of today are pretty open minded and they'll be supportive of something even if they're not super into it, musically.

What were your parents listening to around the house that influenced you?

Nothing, really. My dad played a variety of horned instruments when he was younger, so he was a musician. My mom is pretty contemporary. She likes the Goo Goo Dolls. She likes Bon Jovi. But I can't really think of anything that they specifically got me into.

That's strange, I feel like most people you talk to trace all of their influence back to their parents.

Yeah, my Dad actually just told me the other day he didn't like the Beatles. I was like "Are you fucking kidding me? You don't like the Beatles?"

You had a Motley Crue hoodie on the other day, are you a Motley fan too?

Yeah, I am. I mean, they're shitbags as human beings. But they were one of the bands I loved growing up. My sister was really into glam rock, so I got into Guns N' Roses and Motely Crue and Def Leppard. Even Warrant and some of the later cheesy stuff. Motley Crue was the band I gravitated towards the most out of that scene. So I go back and listen to two or three records now. The first three Motley records are perfect to me, I don't care what anybody says.

Did you read The Dirt?

Oh yeah, of course.

They were really horrible people.

Oh yeah, they were disgusting and mysogonistic. Just, ugh. But cool band, I guess.

So what's next for you in 2012?

I'm hoping to do a split 7" or two over the next 4 or 5 months. Then I'm going to go do a European tour and some more U.S. touring after that, and hopefully I'll play the Fest again. I played the last two years, hopefully they'll have me back. And I'll probably record another Divided Heaven record over the Holidays.

That's a full year dude.

Yeah, it is.

Well thanks so much for doing this man.

Absolutely, it was my pleasure. Keep in touch.